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7 hours ago, AustinIllini said:

So you would rather their be 2-3 LW bands finishing in the top ten every year.

And honestly, the ROI from a competitive standpoint is minimal.  Lincoln-Way East has spent its entirely history near the top of ISU.  So unless you're from Marian Catholic, Lake Park, or Prospect, who really have all the resources to compete with LW anyway, there's really no room to complain.  Two or three finalist bands wouldn't have been in if LW were 3 or 4 bands.  

The fact is, it's financially irresponsible for a district to field 3-4 marching bands if they can't afford it.

That isn’t my problem if they can’t afford it. It isn’t ethical no matter what. That is different than against the rules. More importantly, it’s against the spirit of how most others compete. They don’t combine.

And the bands you mentioned who have the ‘resources’..  what planet are you living on? Lake Park is all-volunteer. Marian is well known as not having the same resources but making it work. Not sure about Prospect.

LW district mishandled and mismanaged funds — not anyone else’s fault. Combining multiple schools to compete as one band is wrong. It dilutes the achievement in my book. 

I believe they deserved to win ISU but am generally dismissive of their approach to forming a competing band - not a band in general. 

 

 

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39 minutes ago, johnlivingston said:

That isn’t my problem if they can’t afford it. It isn’t ethical no matter what. That is different than against the rules. More importantly, it’s against the spirit of how most others compete. They don’t combine.

And the bands you mentioned who have the ‘resources’..  what planet are you living on? Lake Park is all-volunteer. Marian is well known as not having the same resources but making it work. Not sure about Prospect.

LW district mishandled and mismanaged funds — not anyone else’s fault. Combining multiple schools to compete as one band is wrong. It dilutes the achievement in my book. 

I believe they deserved to win ISU but am generally dismissive of their approach to forming a competing band - not a band in general. 

 

 

To be honest though, that’s one of the things out of student control. If they love marching band they won’t quit because of a consolation they didn’t get to make the final decision on. 

They did great and they deserved the win. And by they I mean the students did great and the students deserved the win.

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30 minutes ago, Marchingmaniac88 said:

To be honest though, that’s one of the things out of student control. If they love marching band they won’t quit because of a consolation they didn’t get to make the final decision on. 

They did great and they deserved the win. And by they I mean the students did great and the students deserved the win.

Yeah I’m only referring to the adults. I’m totally fine if they want to combine to create bands & ensembles. But competition must be on an even playing field- and as long as there are competitions with multiple performance opportunities on the table for several groups - they should represent their schools in the same way that their basketball and football teams do. Imagine if a district attempted to combine 3 schools into one football team?

IHSA would not allow them to compete. 

Why is band so different? The adults in this matter may face limited choices based on the budget + admin.. but that also needs to be addressed internally and by other BOA-related organizations. 

LW at a parade? Great. LW as three schools vs one school of any kind? Wrong. 

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15 hours ago, briar62 said:

Very much so, there was a time when Illinois used to be the premier spot for High School Marching Bands.  Then we went through some ups and downs. I think we're on the upswing now. I've always wondered if we need some kind of system like they have in other states that looks something like a playoff system, as in KY, IN & TX and a few others

I think what we need is a central scoring system. In Illinois, every competition scores differently, so I think in order to see how we stack up against each other, we should have a scoring system that would be the same throughout Illinois and maybe even connect the scoring system with other states as well

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10 hours ago, Stcaficd said:

Thoughts on Plainfield Norths show?

Nice show.  Just me, the props cause viewers to focus on the props, and not on the band.  During Finals, I ignored the props and only watched the band.  I believe their overall placement in Finals was correct.

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6 hours ago, BandFreak27 said:

I think what we need is a central scoring system. In Illinois, every competition scores differently, so I think in order to see how we stack up against each other, we should have a scoring system that would be the same throughout Illinois and maybe even connect the scoring system with other states as well

Agree, at Metamora Newton was at 92,7 then at Effingham it was  80.05.  That I thought was a wild swing. I think if we're going to have and want to have bands compete at BOA we need to use their rules and scoring system, Maybe use a some of their adjudicators to instruct others how to score. Then have at maybe a former or current BOA adjudicator be the head judge at each competition. 

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At this point, most people are using something that at least resembles the BOA system and sheets- which was not true all that long ago. The most common variation is those that only hire one Mus GE judge (perfectly appropriate way to save $$ for hosts of smaller shows IMHO). The big issue I see is that we need more high quality, trained judges in Illinois. There are definitely some excellent judges in the state, but we need more. There are a lot of judges that lack high-level experience in the activity and/or don't understand modern marching band adjudication (i.e. number management). I don't mind not having an official state system most of the time, but having one would help ensure consistent judge training. I

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1 hour ago, Band said:

At this point, most people are using something that at least resembles the BOA system and sheets- which was not true all that long ago. The most common variation is those that only hire one Mus GE judge (perfectly appropriate way to save $$ for hosts of smaller shows IMHO). The big issue I see is that we need more high quality, trained judges in Illinois. There are definitely some excellent judges in the state, but we need more. There are a lot of judges that lack high-level experience in the activity and/or don't understand modern marching band adjudication (i.e. number management). I don't mind not having an official state system most of the time, but having one would help ensure consistent judge training. I

I think this is a great point.  I think having a state system would absolutely go a long way in helping to solve the judging issues in IL. We need a system that clearly articulates the sheets and what exactly a judge should be looking for.  Providing training would be a huge step especially in numbers management.  We saw this past weekend how hard it is to manage numbers in 5a/6a prelims at ISU and that is from a panel of judges who regularly judges at the BOA level. 

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20 hours ago, johnlivingston said:

Yeah I’m only referring to the adults. I’m totally fine if they want to combine to create bands & ensembles. But competition must be on an even playing field- and as long as there are competitions with multiple performance opportunities on the table for several groups - they should represent their schools in the same way that their basketball and football teams do. Imagine if a district attempted to combine 3 schools into one football team?

IHSA would not allow them to compete. 

Why is band so different? The adults in this matter may face limited choices based on the budget + admin.. but that also needs to be addressed internally and by other BOA-related organizations. 

LW at a parade? Great. LW as three schools vs one school of any kind? Wrong. 

IHSA indeed allows schools to combine in ALL sports.  There are currently 48 co-op football teams officially approved by IHSA to compete against other schools.  These teams can be comprised of students from other schools inside or outside of the school district of the host school.  There is a process to officially be approved by IHSA and there are rules and guidelines set forth by IHSA to be approved.  But it happens, and frankly, I would go as far as saying its fairly common in all IHSA sanctioned sports (of which marching band is not one of them). Below is the link to the listing of all co-op teams officially approved by the IHSA:

https://www.ihsa.org/Schools/SchoolDirectory/CooperativeTeams.aspx

 

I think this whole "combined marching band" issue, of which Lincoln-Way is not the first IL band to do it (and wont be the last re: Normal and probably more to come) speaks to the larger issue in our state. There is no governing body for marching bands.  If you look at the states that have the highest achieving bands and a larger population of bands competing on a national stage (Texas, Indiana, Oklahoma, Florida) there is a governing body that runs a state wide circuit, essentially a "state championship".  There are rules and guidelines that bands have to follow to be allowed to compete in the circuit, and combined bands would have to follow those guidelines to be able to compete.  It would honestly solve this issue.  If LW or any other combined band wanted to participate they would have to play by the rules set out by the governing body.  Just like the co-op programs in the IHSA do. 

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On 10/20/2019 at 8:15 PM, johnlivingston said:

Yeah I’m only referring to the adults. I’m totally fine if they want to combine to create bands & ensembles. But competition must be on an even playing field- and as long as there are competitions with multiple performance opportunities on the table for several groups - they should represent their schools in the same way that their basketball and football teams do. Imagine if a district attempted to combine 3 schools into one football team?

IHSA would not allow them to compete. 

Why is band so different? The adults in this matter may face limited choices based on the budget + admin.. but that also needs to be addressed internally and by other BOA-related organizations. 

LW at a parade? Great. LW as three schools vs one school of any kind? Wrong. 

Actually you'd be wrong on the point that IHSA wouldn't let them compete.  I believe back in the day Joliet West and Joliet Central combined and competed in many sports under the Joliet Township banner.

 

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On 10/20/2019 at 12:36 AM, johnlivingston said:

Let’s get real.. LW isn’t accustomed to tons of success outside of the state. They had a very good performance tonight. IL ST is their Super Bowl. 

I still think it’s ethically wrong for a public school district to field a band comprised of 3 high schools and compete against single high schools. 

This has been done across the country with numerous school districts.  Lockport has been a district band prior to Lincoln-Way combining forces.  The true reason that L-W combined is that when the one school was closed, the district was shifted and the LWE & LWC bands were split up, thus losing their band family.  Combining forces helped the kids stay together and brought the community together as one.  It has been a fantastic experience that has been shared by the entire district.  

Also, as stated previously, two more bands were able to be in finals because of it.

FYI L-W is only in their 4th year and placed 4th overall last year at the St. Louis Super Regional.  I say that is pretty good since it was only their 3rd year.  They have also been the 2019 Tournament of Roses Parade and are marching in the 2020 Macy's Thanksgiving Parade.

 

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On 10/21/2019 at 4:32 PM, bandfan1 said:

I think this is a great point.  I think having a state system would absolutely go a long way in helping to solve the judging issues in IL. We need a system that clearly articulates the sheets and what exactly a judge should be looking for.  Providing training would be a huge step especially in numbers management.  We saw this past weekend how hard it is to manage numbers in 5a/6a prelims at ISU and that is from a panel of judges who regularly judges at the BOA level. 

They also should group bands by their actual size and not school size. Like Romeoville should be in like 5A or 6A, while Warren should be in 4A. Idk, I think bands would have different success if they were organized a bit differently and performance times were different.

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40 minutes ago, JT2002 said:

They also should group bands by their actual size and not school size. Like Romeoville should be in like 5A or 6A, while Warren should be in 4A. Idk, I think bands would have different success if they were organized a bit differently and performance times were different.

Honestly, I don’t really have a horse in the race. The minutia of the rules doesn’t really matter to me. It’s more about the idea of actually having a circuit or governing body helping to organize marching band in the state of Illinois. 
 

 I would be fine with either structure, band size or school size. My guess is since BOA does school size that would be the practice, but really it doesn’t matter to me. 

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10 hours ago, Saxypercussionmom said:

This has been done across the country with numerous school districts.  Lockport has been a district band prior to Lincoln-Way combining forces.  The true reason that L-W combined is that when the one school was closed, the district was shifted and the LWE & LWC bands were split up, thus losing their band family.  Combining forces helped the kids stay together and brought the community together as one.  It has been a fantastic experience that has been shared by the entire district.  

Also, as stated previously, two more bands were able to be in finals because of it.

FYI L-W is only in their 4th year and placed 4th overall last year at the St. Louis Super Regional.  I say that is pretty good since it was only their 3rd year.  They have also been the 2019 Tournament of Roses Parade and are marching in the 2020 Macy's Thanksgiving Parade.

 

I’m not sure what you mean by Lockport being a district band.  Yes they have 2 buildings. One houses only Freshman and the other Building houses Sophomores, Juniors, and Seniors. This is by no means combining forces.  So I’m not sure how you compare that to Lincoln Way. I also think that saying if Lincoln Way was all separate schools and competing that all of them would be in the top is a pretty bold statement.  I’ve followed marching band for a number of years and I’ve seen the growth of a lot of schools that I feel are very competitive. None the less Lockport has a very strong show and I think they have proved that, but yet just about everyone on here is so biased to Lincoln Way and Marian. I understand everyone has a right to their opinion and those schools have been in the top for several years but that doesn’t guarantee they will continue to be.  Never underestimate the “dark horse”. 

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12 minutes ago, Teachcoach said:

I’m not sure what you mean by Lockport being a district band.  Yes they have 2 buildings. One houses only Freshman and the other Building houses Sophomores, Juniors, and Seniors. This is by no means combining forces.  So I’m not sure how you compare that to Lincoln Way. I also think that saying if Lincoln Way was all separate schools and competing that all of them would be in the top is a pretty bold statement.  I’ve followed marching band for a number of years and I’ve seen the growth of a lot of schools that I feel are very competitive. None the less Lockport has a very strong show and I think they have proved that, but yet just about everyone on here is so biased to Lincoln Way and Marian. I understand everyone has a right to their opinion and those schools have been in the top for several years but that doesn’t guarantee they will continue to be.  Never underestimate the “dark horse”. 

Agreed.

Lockport Township has a very well executed show this year. I definitely think they were robbed of the top spot at ISU.

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47 minutes ago, Teachcoach said:

I’m not sure what you mean by Lockport being a district band.  Yes they have 2 buildings. One houses only Freshman and the other Building houses Sophomores, Juniors, and Seniors. This is by no means combining forces.  So I’m not sure how you compare that to Lincoln Way. I also think that saying if Lincoln Way was all separate schools and competing that all of them would be in the top is a pretty bold statement.  I’ve followed marching band for a number of years and I’ve seen the growth of a lot of schools that I feel are very competitive. None the less Lockport has a very strong show and I think they have proved that, but yet just about everyone on here is so biased to Lincoln Way and Marian. I understand everyone has a right to their opinion and those schools have been in the top for several years but that doesn’t guarantee they will continue to be.  Never underestimate the “dark horse”. 

I would hardly consider Lockport a “dark horse”. Lockport is an outstanding band, they play and march so well. I love their show this year.  Lockport placed 21st in Semi’s at grand nationals last year. That’s not a dark horse. I would consider Jacobs being in finals a dark horse. 

Speaking as someone who has no allegiance to any band, I appreciate the quality of Illinois marching band right now. I feel the depth of quality shows and bands is getting larger and I can’t wait to see where the future takes all of these great bands and students. 

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21 minutes ago, Marchingmom said:

Lockport did a Great Job competing with a solid show and was recognized TOP in their class as they should have been! One school one group of hard working kids and one school funding them. They should be so proud ! They are overlooked by so many ! 

I agree 100% they did a great job competing. They deserved the top spot in 6A in prelims no doubt. They should be proud of the product they have created. It’s truly among the best of the best. 

Frankly, all 40+ bands who performed on Saturday should be proud. The work ethic required to be a part of a competitive marching band is second to none. Regardless of where you place. That’s the awesome part about this activity. Bravo to ALL of the students who performed on Saturday. 

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11 hours ago, Saxypercussionmom said:

This has been done across the country with numerous school districts.  Lockport has been a district band prior to Lincoln-Way combining forces.  The true reason that L-W combined is that when the one school was closed, the district was shifted and the LWE & LWC bands were split up, thus losing their band family.  Combining forces helped the kids stay together and brought the community together as one.  It has been a fantastic experience that has been shared by the entire district.  

Also, as stated previously, two more bands were able to be in finals because of it.

FYI L-W is only in their 4th year and placed 4th overall last year at the St. Louis Super Regional.  I say that is pretty good since it was only their 3rd year.  They have also been the 2019 Tournament of Roses Parade and are marching in the 2020 Macy's Thanksgiving Parade.

 

Band family? It’s a competition. Combining individual high schools does not make it right. 

LW does not have to compete.. to keep their band family together. 

The equivalency argument falls flat vs multi-campuses like  Lockport and Lake Park. Old LW had it right - two campuses- one school.

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41 minutes ago, bandfan1 said:

I would hardly consider Lockport a “dark horse”. Lockport is an outstanding band, they play and march so well. I love their show this year.  Lockport placed 21st in Semi’s at grand nationals last year. That’s not a dark horse. I would consider Jacobs being in finals a dark horse. 

Speaking as someone who has no allegiance to any band, I appreciate the quality of Illinois marching band right now. I feel the depth of quality shows and bands is getting larger and I can’t wait to see where the future takes all of these great bands and students. 

I only called them a dark horse because that’s how they referred to them in the Lincoln Way results post.  I, myself, don’t consider them a dark horse at all, but others do. 

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19 minutes ago, johnlivingston said:

Band family? It’s a competition. Combining individual high schools does not make it right. 

LW does not have to compete.. to keep their band family together. 

The equivalency argument falls flat vs multi-campuses like  Lockport and Lake Park. Old LW had it right - two campuses- one school.

 

19 minutes ago, johnlivingston said:

Band family? It’s a competition. Combining individual high schools does not make it right. 

LW does not have to compete.. to keep their band family together. 

The equivalency argument falls flat vs multi-campuses like  Lockport and Lake Park. Old LW had it right - two campuses- one school.

Exactly ! 

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15 minutes ago, johnlivingston said:

Band family? It’s a competition. Combining individual high schools does not make it right. 

LW does not have to compete.. to keep their band family together. 

The equivalency argument falls flat vs multi-campuses like  Lockport and Lake Park. Old LW had it right - two campuses- one school.

This conversation is getting old, and frankly starting to sound more like sour grapes and less like a general concern for the overall health and quality of the activity. As it currently stands, there are no rules or guidelines preventing any school/district from combining. 
 

BOA clearly allows it and has for many years (well before LW or Normal combined). And there  is no governing body in Illinois to prevent it. We can talk until we’re blue in the face about the “equity” or “fairness” of it. I personally don’t care one way or the other. Maybe I would feel differently if I were associated with one of the bands whose placements are potentially being negatively affected by a combined band.
 

However,  I am definitely not going to diminish the achievements of students who are a part of any band. They all work hard and deserve to be recognized just as much as any other group regardless of the structure of their band. 

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7 minutes ago, bandfan1 said:

This conversation is getting old, and frankly starting to sound more like sour grapes and less like a general concern for the overall health and quality of the activity. As it currently stands, there are no rules or guidelines preventing any school/district from combining. 
 

BOA clearly allows it and has for many years (well before LW or Normal combined). And there  is no governing body in Illinois to prevent it. We can talk until we’re blue in the face about the “equity” or “fairness” of it. I personally don’t care one way or the other. Maybe I would feel differently if I were associated with one of the bands whose placements are potentially being negatively affected by a combined band.
 

However,  I am definitely not going to diminish the achievements of students who are a part of any band. They all work hard and deserve to be recognized just as much as any other group regardless of the structure of their band. 

Well stated if you were on a weekly basis competing against a 3 in 1 school (LW) it may put a sour taste in your mouth. Their show is good and no one said they didn’t work hard! But when your putting funds from 3 schools and kids from 3 schools to compete as ONE it’s something to think about when your are on the other side of it!   

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It honestly makes me sad that I have grown so upset with how this thread has turned out that it has driven me to stop being a bystander and create an account to speak up. Every member of every band deserves to feel good about all they have accomplished and not have other berating them online. Whether they're combined or not I personally feel every band has every right to put on a show and compete, because regardless of how many kids are in a band they are all there because they LOVE to perform and compete! So it makes me sad to see one band being singled out for accomplishing so much in such little time.

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