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ISU vs. U of I: Which is Our True State Championship

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Guest Brucknerfanatic8

So - U of I in 2013 is on 10/12 and ISU announces next year will be on 10/12/13 as well.

 

- Too early in the season for a state championship contest?

- Ramifications on bands who usually do both?

- Since there is no defined contest to crown a state champ, does a later contest take on the role?

- If so, what competition?

- Lastly, it really chaps my behind that HS marching band almost always takes second fiddle to both collegiate and HS football schedules.

- If this these shouldn't be the final competitions, what should be? State wise

 

Discuss. 

 

From Tuba777

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Just my two cents -- Since HS marching band competitions are in FOOTBALL stadiums, those schools' (both HS and collegiate) schedules should take precedence.  One can't possibly coordinate every HS and college schedule so that the competitions occur on the same weekend every year.  Two examples: WVHS did not play at the CMBF this year because that weekend was WV's homecoming; and DGS did not defend their 2011 UofI class championship because they hosted their own show that weekend.  Both are legitimate reasons not to compete. 

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Isu was early in 2005 and 2008 to name a few. No matte when it is, ISU is always going to be the most respected competition in IL. It's not really a big deal  that its early.  The rest of the shows just fill the time until BOA or the end of the season.

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Also some bands will do U of I and ISU if they wish. They were the same day in 05 and 06 to name a few.

 

Possibly 3 performances in one day?  :o I considered two performances a day to be somewhat of a chore, but then again my band wasn't quite as hardcore as the BOA ones.  ^-^

 

Eureka and Morton both did this.

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Just my two cents -- Since HS marching band competitions are in FOOTBALL stadiums, those schools' (both HS and collegiate) schedules should take precedence.  One can't possibly coordinate every HS and college schedule so that the competitions occur on the same weekend every year. 

 

I respectfully disagree - especially at the HS level.  At the collegiate level it is frequently the case that the athletics program funds the marching band and the marching band operates as a support function of the football program (don't get crazy on me, I'm in no way suggesting that all collegiate marching bands are or should be subservient to the football team, but as a general rule I think this is probably the case).

 

However, at the public HS level the football stadium is a facility paid for by tax dollars and it should support all programs at the school with relative equality.  I could name several schools with which I'm familiar where the music program and the marching band are significantly more successful than the football program.  Obviously they have to share the field.  But I don't think that the football team should have first pick of all the prime dates and the band (and soccer team, and track and field) should have to work with the leftovers.

 

It seems to me that the football program at UofI and ISU are the two drivers of the entire fall competition schedule in Illinois.  They arrange their football schedules, then the two largest (I think) competitions in the state are slotted on off weekends for the football teams.  Then all the more regional and locally run events pick the dates based on those two.  Even BOA events revolve largely around pro football scheduling.

 

Football is more profitable but certainly not more valuable.  I wish the band community had more horsepower to drive their own schedule.  I say this because I don't think an ISU held in mid-October will be a true representation of the best some bands have to offer.  Isn't that what you want to see when competing for the best in the state?

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I think ISU has always been the better of the two; but I also agree that it's rough to see both on the same day, and that having it that early will be rough. Bands like Prospect and O'Fallon, who can't really maneuver to both because of location, will have to attend just one of the festivals. Obviously there has to be some revolving around the football schedules, but I don't see the problem of having it on the first weekend of November if that is the issue. In that case, Grand Nats bands would still get to go and we would get a better understanding on the best bands have to offer.

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November would be a challenge for outdoor performance.  Sure everyone is rehearsing outside however scheduling a full day and night could be rough.  My understanding is ISU was altered one year because of cold.  I think they want to gamble on better weather.

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I think ISU has always been the better of the two; but I also agree that it's rough to see both on the same day, and that having it that early will be rough. Bands like Prospect and O'Fallon, who can't really maneuver to both because of location, will have to attend just one of the festivals. Obviously there has to be some revolving around the football schedules, but I don't see the problem of having it on the first weekend of November if that is the issue. In that case, Grand Nats bands would still get to go and we would get a better understanding on the best bands have to offer.

 

I don't think the location of Prospect/O'Fallon would cause problems - it'd be their performance times. They're in higher classes and would have to play at roughly the same time at both shows. Bands like Eureka and Morton can pull off the multiple shows because they would perform in the morning at ISU and early afternoon at U of I. Prospect/O'Fallon will definitely have to choose. That's a real shame too because Prospect will likely choose U of I because of their tradition there, and they deserve to be playing with the heavy-hitters at ISU. O'Fallon could choose either.

 

And the first weekend of November would be too cold for ISU.

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Neither.

 

A true state championship:

-Needs to accept all interested bands (no wait list.)

-At minimum needs to be prelims/finals.

 

 

This is something along the lines of what I would love to see (except with no ordinals):

http://forums.bands.org/vb/showthread.php?44566-2012-UIL-Area-Results&p=480049#post480049

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In spite of the title of the thread my original thought when I created the post at the top of the thread was not pit UofI against ISU to crown the state champ.  I agree that ISU is and has been THE competition where the best go to leave it on the field.

 

I was questioning the wisdom and reasons behind why they end up on the same day and the repercussions of having ISU significantly earlier in the month than it has been in recent years.  If you consider the marching season to be the entire months of Sept. and Oct., and the usual date for ISU is late in October, then moving it up two weeks removes about 25% of your preparation time for the big state meet.  There is a lot of drill cleaning, consolidation, and goodies added to a show in those two weeks.

 

With coordination by both competitions there could be numerous bands that do double duty at both shows.  The drive between the two is only 1:15.  It would make for a tough day (particularly for bands that anticipate making finals at ISU) but certainly do-able. 

 

If I had to choose between the two as a spectator ISU is the hands down winner.  On the whole  I think ISU has a better cross section of the best bands in the state (no offense meant UofI). I prefer the prelims - finals format at ISU, and generally I like the judging at ISU better (although that is less of a factor).

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I was questioning the wisdom and reasons behind why they end up on the same day and the repercussions of having ISU significantly earlier in the month than it has been in recent years.  If you consider the marching season to be the entire months of Sept. and Oct., and the usual date for ISU is late in October, then moving it up two weeks removes about 25% of your preparation time for the big state meet.  There is a lot of drill cleaning, consolidation, and goodies added to a show in those two weeks.

 

 

Chances are it could the same date in 2014 as well-U of I is set in as October 25, 2014.

 

Also, to whoever suggested maybe having a state championship in November?  NO.  That first or second weekend should be the Indianapolis regional for quite a few years to come.

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Speaking of- why was the Indy regional moved up, like, a month this year?

 

FFA Convention in Indianapolis took the normal ISSMA State Finals weekend (last weekend in October), so that screwed everything up.  BOA was very accommodating and moved the regional to the week in between regionals and Semi-State, and gave the normal regional weekend to ISSMA State Finals.

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Any news on the IHSA state championship?

 

Apparently the idea will be voted on by the schools next month-10% is required to move it on to a committee of competing band directors (so, roughly, 80 schools in IL need to approve the idea.)  If it is fully approved, don't expect to see implementation until 2014, 2015 at the earliest.

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Guest Brucknerfanatic8

Any news on the IHSA state championship?

 

Apparently the idea will be voted on by the schools next month-10% is required to move it on to a committee of competing band directors (so, roughly, 80 schools in IL need to approve the idea.)  If it is fully approved, don't expect to see implementation until 2014, 2015 at the earliest.

I already say that it will be a no go under IHSA

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Any news on the IHSA state championship?

 

Apparently the idea will be voted on by the schools next month-10% is required to move it on to a committee of competing band directors (so, roughly, 80 schools in IL need to approve the idea.)  If it is fully approved, don't expect to see implementation until 2014, 2015 at the earliest.

 

I've been thinking about how to run an IHSA championship, so I registered to post my idea.

 

"State" Class championships are hosted by U of I AND ISU. Schools are broken into 6 classes. The first year 1A/3A/5A at ISU, 2A/4A/6A at U of I. The second year, 1A/3A/5A at U of I, and 2A/4A/6A at ISU. Just keep flipping back and forth. If you take 12 bands per class, this lets 72 bands make "state", and gives each university the opportunity to recruit 72 bands worth of students every 2 years (now, I bet it is around 50 bands every 2 years since there are so many repeats).

 

For fun, you could have an ISU-style finals at either U of I or ISU (whichever was scheduled later in the year, or pick one if they're on the same day like next year). If I were running it, I'd invite:

1. The 6 class champions.

2. The next highest scoring in 1A or 3A

3. The next highest scoring in 2A or 4A

4. The second place band in 5A

5. The second place band in 6A

6. The next highest scoring band in 1A/3A/5A regardless of class

7. The next highest scoring band in 2A/4A/6A regardless of class

The 6 bands whose class championships were at the other site would travel only for the nighttime finals. The other 6 would already be on site for finals.

 

In order to qualify for the "State" class championships, you could have "Sectionals" (in the IHSA terminology). I'd have four sectionals for 1A/2A/3A/4A, and four sectionals for 5A/6A. The 1A-4A sectionals could, for example, be at NIU, WIU, EIU, and SIU-C, which gives pretty good coverage of the state. The 5A/6A sectionals are a little trickier, but I'd probably have 3 in the Greater Chicagoland area (probably at high schools), and one in Central Illinois for bands like O'Fallon and Pekin. Three bands in each class from each sectional move on to the "State" class championships at either ISU or U of I (depending on the year).  The sectionals would be mostly geographic, though I'd allow a panel of directors and/or judges to make small alterations in order to try to balance the sectionals. The sectionals could take something like 8 bands per class in 1A-4A, and 12 bands per class in 5A/6A. Statewide, that would be 128 bands in 1A-4A, and 96 bands in 5A-6A. I think that would be sufficient to cover everybody that wants to participate. If not, you could always move to having 6 sectionals per class instead of 4.

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You know, maybe if we had a IHSA state series (kinda like our neighbor to the East does.....), this discussion would be moot.

 

This discussion is happening in part because IHSA's involvement is being voted on very soon.

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Any news on the IHSA state championship?

 

Apparently the idea will be voted on by the schools next month-10% is required to move it on to a committee of competing band directors (so, roughly, 80 schools in IL need to approve the idea.)  If it is fully approved, don't expect to see implementation until 2014, 2015 at the earliest.

 

I've been thinking about how to run an IHSA championship, so I registered to post my idea.

 

"State" Class championships are hosted by U of I AND ISU. Schools are broken into 6 classes. The first year 1A/3A/5A at ISU, 2A/4A/6A at U of I. The second year, 1A/3A/5A at U of I, and 2A/4A/6A at ISU. Just keep flipping back and forth. If you take 12 bands per class, this lets 72 bands make "state", and gives each university the opportunity to recruit 72 bands worth of students every 2 years (now, I bet it is around 50 bands every 2 years since there are so many repeats).

 

For fun, you could have an ISU-style finals at either U of I or ISU (whichever was scheduled later in the year, or pick one if they're on the same day like next year). If I were running it, I'd invite:

1. The 6 class champions.

2. The next highest scoring in 1A or 3A

3. The next highest scoring in 2A or 4A

4. The second place band in 5A

5. The second place band in 6A

6. The next highest scoring band in 1A/3A/5A regardless of class

7. The next highest scoring band in 2A/4A/6A regardless of class

The 6 bands whose class championships were at the other site would travel only for the nighttime finals. The other 6 would already be on site for finals.

 

In order to qualify for the "State" class championships, you could have "Sectionals" (in the IHSA terminology). I'd have four sectionals for 1A/2A/3A/4A, and four sectionals for 5A/6A. The 1A-4A sectionals could, for example, be at NIU, WIU, EIU, and SIU-C, which gives pretty good coverage of the state. The 5A/6A sectionals are a little trickier, but I'd probably have 3 in the Greater Chicagoland area (probably at high schools), and one in Central Illinois for bands like O'Fallon and Pekin. Three bands in each class from each sectional move on to the "State" class championships at either ISU or U of I (depending on the year).  The sectionals would be mostly geographic, though I'd allow a panel of directors and/or judges to make small alterations in order to try to balance the sectionals. The sectionals could take something like 8 bands per class in 1A-4A, and 12 bands per class in 5A/6A. Statewide, that would be 128 bands in 1A-4A, and 96 bands in 5A-6A. I think that would be sufficient to cover everybody that wants to participate. If not, you could always move to having 6 sectionals per class instead of 4.

 

What I'm curious about is what when would these championships be held and how would this affect the other competitions  that are held annually around the state.

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Interesting that I saw this post in its infancy earlier, couldn't reply then. When I came back later, I didn't look to see the updated comments, but the same thing was on other's minds, as the thread morphed into the same discussion as where my mind was.

 

If the IHSA does pick up a competition, it will be interesting to see the classification system. Currently, football 8, music 5, most every other activity is 3 or 4 classes. My opinion would lean toward a smaller number of classes, like 4 or 5. Again, referencing our neighbor to the East (Perhaps a bit of bias showing, but I think there are a couple bands in that state that know how to do it........), they utilize 4 classes. Not saying that if we do go that route, we should mimic Indiana's program - I've always felt that the definition of classes is too finite for the activity with 6 classes.

 

To answer the point about what would happen to the other competitions, maybe some of the current hosts would end up as host for sectionals, regionals, semi-state, etc.

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Interesting that I saw this post in its infancy earlier, couldn't reply then. When I came back later, I didn't look to see the updated comments, but the same thing was on other's minds, as the thread morphed into the same discussion as where my mind was.

 

If the IHSA does pick up a competition, it will be interesting to see the classification system. Currently, football 8, music 5, most every other activity is 3 or 4 classes. My opinion would lean toward a smaller number of classes, like 4 or 5. Again, referencing our neighbor to the East (Perhaps a bit of bias showing, but I think there are a couple bands in that state that know how to do it........), they utilize 4 classes. Not saying that if we do go that route, we should mimic Indiana's program - I've always felt that the definition of classes is too finite for the activity with 6 classes.

 

To answer the point about what would happen to the other competitions, maybe some of the current hosts would end up as host for sectionals, regionals, semi-state, etc.

 

4 might be too few.

 

IHSA's mission statement says this: "The IHSA governs the equitable participation in interscholastic athletics and activities that enrich the educational experience."

 

If we take the 223 active bands in our database and divide them into 4 equitable participating classes by enrollment - say 50/50/50/73 (73 = smallest schools) the groupings would be approximately this:

4400 to 2000 (all of ISU 5A and 6A) (all of U of I 6A and half of 5A)

2000 to 1250 (half of ISU 2A, and 3A, 4A) (half of U of I 5A and most of 4A)

1250 to 630  (Half of ISU 2A, half of ISU 1A) (part of U of I 4A, 3A, half of 2A)

630 to 100+ (half of ISU 1A and similar) (half of U of I 2A, 1A, and similar)

 

In other words, four equitable classes might boost attention on the smallest schools' programs, while crowding most of the strongest bands into the two large school classes. The six-class systems at both universities may be providing more attention on more programs in the current environment.

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Dan,

One way to resolve this might be to adjust the percent in each class. I think IHSA does this in other sports. Or, utilize five classes. Actually, where I believe the current 6 class set up is "micro-dividing" is more toward the lower classes anyway.

That said, of course, I'm not sure IHSA will be trolling for or gathering my input. It will be interesting to see what is done, presuming of course, that it will be done.....

BTW - thanks for what you do here. (Even if it is run by a non-brass guy, I rely on this site).

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