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IHSA Multiplier

Should the IHSA Multiplier be used on "School Size" Classifications?  

5 members have voted

  1. 1. Should the IHSA Multiplier be used on "School Size" Classifications?

    • Yes - It would make classifications more fair!
      3
    • No - The classifications are fine the way they are!
      2
    • Maybe - I can't decide...there are pros/cons to both arguments!
      0


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I was sent an email on here from a nameless person threatening (apparently he thinks I am associated with the program) to 'out' the Marian Catholic band program for essentially recruiting junior high school band members. Of course, not going door-to-door, but accusing their head director of showing up at public events to scout out talent. ...

Time out. How is it unethical? There's nothing barring him from that (if it happened, blah blah blah). To say it might not be fair to other schools that they compete against would be one thing. But I certainly don't find it unethical.

 

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I agree with you, but do not want to insult the person who firmly believes that he has the 'smoking gun'. I am simply asking for evidence that would support improper gifts or something to that nature. Otherwise, who cares? It doesn't make the case for a multiplier any more than a coach going to watch a player who has the choice between his school and a new school being built in the same district and try to sway him to consider his program. See: Valley View SD from a few years back or so; some students had choices, including football and basketball stand-outs.

 

In this economy, do you really think that it wouldn't behoove a band director in his position to get out there at least and be visible or accessible? Especially so. I mean, regardless of what you think the end-game is, it does cost money to attend a private school ON TOP OF what parents are already paying to fund public schools, their programs and students. Yes, that is their choice, but what is so attractive about sending someone to Marian Catholic vs. Lincoln-Way East simply for the band? Yes, they're on different performance levels, but what parent would be crazy enough to want to fork down thousands of dollars over what I consider minor details. To maintain a program, as my former director Mr. Henning knew, you had to get out there and make yourself available and accessible. Otherwise, it would be difficult to maintain any kind of program. Same goes for public schools, but the lifeblood of private schools is exposure. Public school systems will always be there; private schools close every year.

 

I hope not to offend because I am posting out of pure speculation in response to 'cyber blackmail' but I find this laughable. It's band and these problems occur mostly in sports and regarding college/pros. If you really believe that a band director is scouting the metro area--or can find the time for that-- you're dillusional.

 

Why there shouldn't be a multiplier and every high school student should be treated equally:

 

WHAT MATTERS is what happens once students enter high school. Again, everyone is on the same level marching-wise and that's half of the battle to MARCHING band. Marian Catholic does not win because of 'recruitment', but because of the same reasons almost every other band program is successful: their director and the system they have in place to teach novice performers to perform at a collectively high level over the course of time.

 

That's all I have on this subject.

 

Adios.

 

 

 

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I'm surprised no one has brought this up yet:

 

Quote

 

In accordance with Section 1.450 of the IHSA Constitution, the Board of Directors has approved the Terms and Conditions governing the 2010-2011 IHSA Music Solo /Ensemble Tournament Series.

 

I. SCHOOL CLASSIFICATION

 

A. Classes:

 

Member schools shall be classified for participation in the contests upon the basis of the actual high school student enrollment figures reported to the State Board of Education on the Fall Housing Report on September 30, 2009, as follows:

 

Class AA 1601 or over

 

Class A 801 to 1600

 

Class B 351 to 800

 

Class C 191 to 350

 

Class D 1 to 190

 

Saying that Mr. Bimm and Mr. Lambert have the time to go to local junior high schools and recruit is completely and utterly asinine. When would they have the time?

 

Also, saying they "scout out talent" is 100% utter bull. Some of my very good friends could not play a B flat concert scale when they entered the school. Mr. Bimm will take anyone into the band program and teach them how to play an instrument or spin a flag. He really does not have an idea of his instrumentation each season until late April/early May, as it is entered on the schedule signup form issued at freshman orientation in February/March. To think they go to 100+ grade schools in the greater Chicago area is just not smart.

 

Marian Catholic only offers academic scholarships (as offering athletic scholarships is a violation of IHSA rules), and that is to the students who score in the 90th percentile on the entrance exam. There is tuition assistance to those that suffer hardships or desperately need assistance. I've had friends who pay off their tuition by serving as janitorial staff at night and on weekends.

 

WKNDFGT, please forward me the claims of "direct contact" when you get it so I can forward it on to Mr. Bimm and Mr. Lambert.

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WKNDFGT, please forward me the claims of "direct contact" when you get it so I can forward it on to Mr. Bimm and Mr. Lambert.

I have a feeling that some need reminding that these are merely opinions and need to be taken lightly. When hostility gets thrown into the mix, especially from an administrator, I think everyone needs to step back and say this is all for fun right?

Regardless of who says what and who thinks what, no competitions or classifications are perfect in any competitive arenas, do we dare look at figure skating or gymnastics? Enough said, lets all go out and enjoy the Marching Weekend Events!

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Silliness is calling for a blanket enrollment multiplier to be applied to all private schools because of one private school's success that will never be duplicated by any other band, ever.

 

Instead of telling me how silly I am, can you please provide more justification for your position? Show us all of the private schools that have an unfair advantage with their marching band program - show us how they're taking home all the trophies each weekend. Heck there's hardly even any private schools that even have a competitive marching band - so much for the theory that they have an unfair advantage.

 

I can't be literate for you, drillwriter. I've made my arguments, and they are abundant and clear in the other thread. If you chose not to read them or comprehend them, that is your issue, not mine.

 

Our positions are pretty clear. I feel like it's not ok for any band to exploit an unfair advantage in order to gain success. And I feel that you close the loophole not only for the band that is exploiting it, but also for any other bands that have the opportunity to exploit it. You disagree. It is what it is.

 

My parting question for you, Robes, is this: would you honestly be arguing for the multiplier if Marian didn't exist? I can't see why you would, because then you wouldn't have anything to cry foul about, but I wanted to check.

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I'm surprised no one has brought this up yet:

 

Quote

 

In accordance with Section 1.450 of the IHSA Constitution, the Board of Directors has approved the Terms and Conditions governing the 2010-2011 IHSA Music Solo /Ensemble Tournament Series.

 

I. SCHOOL CLASSIFICATION

 

A. Classes:

 

Member schools shall be classified for participation in the contests upon the basis of the actual high school student enrollment figures reported to the State Board of Education on the Fall Housing Report on September 30, 2009, as follows:

 

Class AA 1601 or over

 

Class A 801 to 1600

 

Class B 351 to 800

 

Class C 191 to 350

 

Class D 1 to 190

 

This was a typo in the 2010-2011 IHSA Rules Book. I was reading the rules after all this hub-bub started online to fact check and I noticed that this year too and thought there was a change for this year, but if you check with IHSA, it was a typo.

 

 

It should say adjusted enrollment. That is what is actually used for IHSA Band Contest.

 

I'm glad to see Robes removed All-District and All-State from his list of IHSA classified events. Those are governed by IMEA, not IHSA. They have no classifications at all as individuals, not schools are competing for slots. The only thing applied there is a guarantee that every school that has students apply will have at least one student accepted for district.

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I'm surprised no one has brought this up yet:

 

Quote

 

In accordance with Section 1.450 of the IHSA Constitution, the Board of Directors has approved the Terms and Conditions governing the 2010-2011 IHSA Music Solo /Ensemble Tournament Series.

 

I. SCHOOL CLASSIFICATION

 

A. Classes:

 

Member schools shall be classified for participation in the contests upon the basis of the actual high school student enrollment figures reported to the State Board of Education on the Fall Housing Report on September 30, 2009, as follows:

 

Class AA 1601 or over

 

Class A 801 to 1600

 

Class B 351 to 800

 

Class C 191 to 350

 

Class D 1 to 190

 

This was a typo in the 2010-2011 IHSA Rules Book. I was reading the rules after all this hub-bub started online to fact check and I noticed that this year too and thought there was a change for this year, but if you check with IHSA, it was a typo.

 

 

It should say adjusted enrollment. That is what is actually used for IHSA Band Contest.

 

I'm glad to see Robes removed All-District and All-State from his list of IHSA classified events. Those are governed by IMEA, not IHSA. They have no classifications at all as individuals, not schools are competing for slots. The only thing applied there is a guarantee that every school that has students apply will have at least one student accepted for district.

Thanks - good to know. You probably know this one, too: does BOA have any adjustment rules?

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BOA uses the enrollment figure used by the state for classifications in band contest and interscholastic sports.

 

But only grades 10-12 as submitted by the principal of each school.

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BOA uses the enrollment figure used by the state for classifications in band contest and interscholastic sports.

 

But only grades 10-12 as submitted by the principal of each school.

Ok, thats confusing as heck.

 

Does that mean that, for BOA, Marian's enrollment would be:

 

(their 10 thru 12th enrollment, which could be approximated to be 75 percent of their total enrollment) * the IHSA multiplier?

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Ok, thats confusing as heck.

 

Does that mean that, for BOA, Marian's enrollment would be:

 

(their 10 thru 12th enrollment, which could be approximated to be 75 percent of their total enrollment) * the IHSA multiplier?

No. Their official enrollment of 1505 is used.

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I attended both a private school (2 years) and a public school (2 years).

 

The programs I was involved with were never as successful as Marian Catholic, but we didn't have bad programs. Just dealt with several unique challenges in a private setting (mostly funding) versus public school where we obviously conducted fundraisers but were taxpayer funded.

I've found this discussion to be very interesting, but I did want to mention that I don't believe that in recent years (and currently) that public schools have a funding advantage. 25+ years ago when I was in high school, I do believe that much of the public school funding for arts programs came from taxpayers (particularly in Illinois). However, as a parent, I'm not seeing it -- all I see is funding being cut, cut, cut, cut to keep the districts as far out of the red as possible, and so the arts programs are essentially running on a shoestring budget relying very heavily on fundraising and parent volunteer contributions.

Private schools, on the other hand (at least in my area) seem to be more resilient. They aren't having to continue to cut programs because the state fails to keep its promises - they're only dependent on the enrollment fees and alumni contributions (and their own fundraising, of course). Some (but not all) of the private schools do seem to be taking a hit in this economy - I've heard of people taking their kids out of private school and putting them back into public school because they can't afford the tuition any more, but overall I'm not seeing how private schools (not just Marion Catholic) are at any kind of disadvantage due to funding.

 

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In Illinois, the best directors produce the best bands...large school or not
I'd agree with this, with a caveat. I think the best directors do produce the best bands ... but those schools that can afford to have more directors (particularly more of the 'best' directors) are going to typically produce better bands than smaller schools that can't do that. When your school only has one or two directors (and perhaps volunteers to help), they're just not going to be able to provide the same molding as a school with four or more full-time directors (during band season), where each director can focus on one aspect of the band.

 

I think that's why certain of the biggest schools tend to win consistently - even though a smaller school might have a great director or two, it's much more difficult for them to compete with the big schools which have multiple great directors who can provide more detailed focus to their band.

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I have read this thread, and I will make this brief.

 

If we stop looking at this as being so incredibly different than sports, why wouldn't we hold consistent to how sports are handled? I'm not going to comment on anything like recruiting, or anything else. That's all crap.

 

In the end, none of this matters outside of one show a year in IL, and even then, how much does any of this really matter? Until we have an actual state championship, and not something we all view as state, then we have to remember that ISU is JUST ANOTHER SHOW. Until we have a circuit, none of it matters....

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Caution – thread moving in a different direction.

 

I have a suggestion that throws the whole discussion of Marion Catholic and the fairness of their participation at ISU in a different light. Since there is no state mandated method of classification for band competition, and each competition adopts its own method of classification, I suggest a "hat trick" (three in a row) rule be applied. This is similar to the WGI/performance method of classification but applied differently.

 

Hat Trick Rule - a group is initially classified by whatever method the competition rules committee chooses to use - at ISU adjusted school size. If you win that class three years in a row your group is forced into the next higher classification. This continues until the group is in the top level of competition or loses. If they lose then the next year they revert back to the classification based on the rules committee, or at the schools election they could continue to compete in a higher level.

 

The hat trick rule prevents a relatively hyper-competitive band from total domination of one class for multiple years and tends to force a band to compete with their competitive equals, regardless of band or school size. However, it assumes that the best competitors are in the highest (read larger school size) classification. “Larger is better,” as a general statement, is fairly accurate but it is by no means the rule. I.e. – Prospect, a 5A band, won large school GC at U of I last week over all 6A bands. But would Prospect have won GC over Morton and all bands in 1A-4A? (I know, different judges, apples/oranges) The point is a smaller band at U of I could potentially have claimed GC over the larger bands had there been the same set of judges, making all bands eligible for an overall GC.

 

How would the hat trick rule have worked if applied in the past? Looking back through the ISU results to the year 2000. There are seven instances since 2000 where a band has won their division three or more years in a row. Eureka 1A 00-06, Illinois Valley Central 2A 02-04, Morton 2A 05-09, Lemont 3A 00-05, Marion Catholic 3A 06-09, Marion Catholic 4A 00-05, Lake Park 6A 01-04. (Some interesting stats come out of this – only two bands have won 3A in the past ten years, Lemont and MC; no band has won 5A more than twice in a row in the past ten years; MC has never lost the division they entered in the past ten years, 4A 00-05 and 3A 06-09).

 

I didn’t do all the math to determine what the result would have been had each of those bands been forced into the next higher class after winning three in a row but I did follow one as an example. Stay with me, this gets a little complicated. Marion Catholic (MC) won 4A in 00, 01, and 02, which would have forced them into 5A for the next year (the next three years if they continue winning in 5A). According to the scores posted in the archives, MC outscored (by a significant margin, 6-10 points) the winning 5A band for each of the next three years in 03, 04, and 05. Now the hat trick rule would force them up another class into 6A.

 

MC would have won 6A in 06, beating out Lincoln Way-East in the prelims (but this time by only two points). In 07 MC would have come in third in 6A competition to LW-East and Lake Park. Applying the hat trick rule then, in 08, MC would either stay in 6A at their choice or be placed according to the classification rules back in 3A and the hat trick process would start over. If I analyzed it correctly, the application of the hat trick rule to MC over this time period would not have affected at all MC’s making finals.

As applied here, it appears the hat trick rule would have the desired effect of forcing a good band to compete with like bands for a spot in finals. But in the end it would not have prevented any really deserving band from having a shot at winning the Grand Champion award.

 

As a final argument for making a band compete with their equals, is my belief that stiff competition only serves to make a group strive that much harder to be good. Stiff competition breeds better bands on the whole.

 

Food for thought.

 

Mod edit: Fixed truncated post.

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This idea is very reasonable and well thought out...thanks for sharing!

 

My only question would be, why does the band have to move all the way back down to their original class if they lose 1 year. In you example, Marian would move down to 3A after losing in 6A just once. Why not have them just decrement by 1 and go back to 5A. If they win 5A 3 more years, then its back to 6A with them. Just a thought.

 

 

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It could be structured anyway you like. As I had it above the band could elect to stay in the higher level of competition after losing. I think one of the keys to making it workable is to take out the subjective judgment of some committee as to who stays and who goes at any given level of competition. After losing one year at a higher class of competition perhaps the band could choose to compete at any level between where they lost and where they fall in the classification by school size.

 

I borrowed this idea from my days competing in the North American Brass Band Association where there are three levels of competition. A band can choose to enter any level at which they think they will be competitive. If they win three in a row, they move up to the next level. If they win the top division three in a row, they have to sit out a year before they can compete again. I intentionally left that aspect out of my suggestion for use in a high school band setting. Doesn't seem fair to me to tell a senior who has won the past three years at "X" competition that they don't get to defend their title at the highest level of competition. Although I will say that it was the ultimate badge of honor after winning three in a row to be allowed to either sit out a year or play as an exhibition band for comments only.

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New to the site, wish I would have found it years ago!! Some thoughts on this topic: Very few bands attempt to compete at a high level in this style of marching band music be it in this state or in the entire country. As far as the multiplier goes, it would be applied to one school at ISU as far as I know, Marian Catholic. They woud have no problem being moved up in class. It's all about the performance and trying to do your best and giving your all. Full disclosure, I am a Marian band parent. My daughter is a senior, a section leader and plays three instruments in the program. There are plenty of kids at Marian who played in grade school but do not join the band for a myriad of reasons. As far as recruiting, I wish they would have recruited my daughter as I am now trying to get colleges to do for her excellence in the classroom, not marching on the football field. Band is what you make it, look at how far the newest Lincoln Way schools have come in a really short time, North and West. Simply amazing. Good luck at Indy to those who are going.

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Silliness is calling for a blanket enrollment multiplier to be applied to all private schools because of one private school's success that will never be duplicated by any other band, ever.

 

Instead of telling me how silly I am, can you please provide more justification for your position? Show us all of the private schools that have an unfair advantage with their marching band program - show us how they're taking home all the trophies each weekend. Heck there's hardly even any private schools that even have a competitive marching band - so much for the theory that they have an unfair advantage.

 

I can't be literate for you, drillwriter. I've made my arguments, and they are abundant and clear in the other thread. If you chose not to read them or comprehend them, that is your issue, not mine.

 

Our positions are pretty clear. I feel like it's not ok for any band to exploit an unfair advantage in order to gain success. And I feel that you close the loophole not only for the band that is exploiting it, but also for any other bands that have the opportunity to exploit it. You disagree. It is what it is.

 

My parting question for you, Robes, is this: would you honestly be arguing for the multiplier if Marian didn't exist? I can't see why you would, because then you wouldn't have anything to cry foul about, but I wanted to check.
This is a great question, and one that I'll answer wholeheartedly: No.

 

If Marian wasn't taking advantage of being an unboundaried district, then I would in no way be calling for the multiplier.

 

Now, time for the reverse question. If Marian didn't exist, would you care if the multiplier was applied?

 

If you answer yes, you're full of it. There's only one band in Illinois that is taking advantage of unboundaried districts, and that's MC...the KING of marching band in Illinois.

 

And guess what...they'd STILL be the king if they were in 6A/5A...it would just be more fair....what a travesty that would be....fairness and still dominance...oh..the horror.

 

HOWEVER. what I find now MASSIVELY interesting is MC seems to be skirting the rules at BOA and not reporting their numbers properly....had NO idea of that before revisiting this thread.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

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Whistlin' in the wind. Several schools were opposed to the multiplier back in 2005 and filed a lawsuit against IHSA over this issue, as one would expect.

 

http://www.ihsa.org/announce/2005-06/050927.htm

 

Someone correct me if I am wrong, because I am not intimately familiar with Bands of America policies, but the way I read the rulebook that was laid out, I think the organization takes into account the actual official reported numbers by the applicant and, should there be a question in terms of enrollment between the time of submittal and either the school year or prior to the numbers being submitted, then BOA consults with the state's official numbers as the default.

 

If a school has properly reported their student population and there are no serious fluctuations or questions, this is probably why the issue has never been addressed. Then again, if you recall, Marian Catholic was in BOA's largest class for quite a while, probably even when this multiplier was implemented, so it was a moot point anyway at that point in time.

 

Do your homework, call BOA directly and ask them about it instead of speculating that people skirt rules. Call Marian Catholic and get an explanation from them.

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I hate bringing back topics-especially this one.

 

IHSA posted 2011 enrollments a few days ago (and you can view them on each band's page)-and they also changed how the multiplier works for sports.

 

http://www.ihsa.org/announce/2010-11/2011-06-16.htm

 

The new multiplier waiver policy adopted by the IHSA Board on June 13 establishes criteria for an automatic waiver of the multiplier in individual sports and activities, taking into account each program's advancement in IHSA tournaments over the previous six years. Previously, a school had to apply for and receive a waiver that covered all of its sport and activity programs.

 

“We have been studying the impact and effectiveness of the multiplier since its inception in 2005,” said IHSA Executive Director Marty Hickman. “Over the years, we have seen a number of instances where the multiplier has been overly punitive to some programs, resulting in lopsided outcomes in postseason contests.  Now we have four years' worth of data since the class expansion that occurred in 2007-08, and we felt that we could address some of the inadequacies in the system.”

 

The multiplier, which was first implemented in the fall of 2005, multiplies a member school’s enrollment by 1.65 to determine the class it will compete in during IHSA postseason tournaments. The multiplier applies to all “non-boundaried” schools, as defined by IHSA By-law 3.170: “Any private school, charter school, lab school, magnet school, residential school, and any public school in a multi-high school district that does not accept students from a fixed portion of the district.”

 

For schools that are subject to the multiplier, the new policy grants an automatic waiver to any sport or activity program that, as a team, has accomplished none of the following over the last six school terms (in this case, 2005-06 to 2010-11): won a state tournament trophy, qualified for the state final tournament, won a sectional, won a regional two or more times, finished second or third in the sectional two or more times (track and field only), won a first-round playoff game (football only), or finished in the top 10 in the state sweepstakes (music only).

 

“Our previous waiver policy was well thought out, but it simply turned out to be too conservative,” said Hickman. “There have been a number of compelling cases around the state where one highly successful team at a school or a few highly successful individuals have prevented all the other teams from that school from being able to receive the multiplier waiver. Our Board felt the right thing to do was to change the waiver policy and give these student-athletes the chance to compete on more equitable ground.”

 

 

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