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AnglofMusic07

Naperville North

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Your teacher assigns your class a powerpoint presentation that is due in a month. The first night you can, you dive into research, fact-checking, paraphrasing, getting all of the information as concise and accurate as possible. Then you put together your powerpoint, making a custom layout and theme that's highly relevant to your topic. You work day and night to make your presentation beautiful and informative. And when its done, you smile because you have something that's yours, that you put hard work into and which you feel positive will get a good grade.

 

So you show your presentation in on the due date, and the class is clearly impressed by the work you put into your assignment. Then, a classmate of yours gives his presentation. It is made entirely from a pre-made template. Animated GIF's and wacky fonts express the information that he found. It is not exceptionally well researched. It gets the point across, and its clean, but you really feel that he hasn't been busting his buns like you have to make it. But the class giggles at his presentation, and smiles giddily as they file out of the classroom.

 

Alright Lucio. I value your input on the topic but yet have much to go against with. Number one, NN puts as much time and effort as any band does in perfecting their show. In the last sentence of the first paragraph quoted above, you said...

And when its done, you smile because you have something that's yours, that you put hard work into and which you feel positive will get a good grade.

The people here at NN use competely original shows, which is what I am thinking since you said "premade template" as well. Our shows are original compositions musically, and drill wise. And we we feel positive we will get a good grade too.

NN definetly bustes our buns to get our show perfected. How could you even say we dont? Our show takes a different kind of patience and techinque to get down. Having the entire band dance/act in a way to make you laugh isnt exactly the easiest thing in the world...

 

Your analogy is wrong because you arent here to witness what we do. Think of it in a different way with the students still being the audience. There are 2 teachers. One teacher is serious and down to dirt. Does things the traditional way. No fun involved and is just strict, serious, and dark. The other teacher is young and light hearted. Lets things slide and have a fun way of teaching. Both classes learn the same material and end up with the same amount of knowledge. How can that be? Many of us know in elementary school which teachers were fun and which were strict. Now which do you think the students would rather have? Like I have said were here to make the audience happy. Were here for the students. Not to be the model teacher to our principal and win educator of the year.

 

Additionally not all corps were like this. There was a corp called the Velvet Knights. Look up their shows I bet youll find one similiar to the 2006 NN Show entitled Around the World in 10 Minutes. Except it was originally composed musically and drill wise by our director. And I think there are more I just cant remember the names.

 

Im sorry you dont like bands that would rather please the audience and give them a show to enjoy then try to understand whats going on and interpret why their show is entitled what it is.

I think I came off as harsh regarding how much work you do. I readily admit that I have never seen NN practice. And I'm sure that you guys put in as much work as any other band. Heck, you win consistently, so that must be something to show for your effort.

 

You have to see this from the perspective of other bands. I think that other analogy I overheard is, besides being simpler, much more accurate. What your band does is amazing. Highly entertaining and cleverly constructed. But it is so radically different from the norm that it's hard to take seriously as being judged better. Not that there's anything wrong with being different. It just complicates things from a judging standpoint, you know? Other bands are the people who prepared their chili recipes, only to be confused and disappointed when beaten by surf n' turf. There's nothing wrong with the surf n' turf! Its just that to the chili-makers, it doesn't seem to belong...

 

I think that this may be because the GE that NN produces is so different. Laughing at clever humor watching NN's show is an entirely different experience from feeling like crapping your pants from awesome overload watching, say, Broken Arrow. This is not to say that your GE, or theirs, is "wrong!" From the view of another band, particularly one of the many from Illinois who prefer the make-people-soil-themselves, your method probably looks downright silly. Whether it is is a matter of opinion, and not worth debating. But if other bands that outlook on your program, it's easy to see how your success could be frustrating to them.

 

Also, I have heard of Velvet Knights. When I said emulate corps I meant the general idea that corps give tightly focused and intense performances. Velvet Knights are an exception to this generalization, and I wouldn't be surprised if they caused the same sort of ruckus among insiders to the activity.

 

I am not taking one side or another in this, although my first post indicates that strongly. In typing all this, I think I've gained a better understanding of the psychology at work here. So, I apologize if I offended you before. But the above is how I think this whole argument is working. Again, sorry, and I hope we can see eye to eye on this.

Lucio, thank you for clarifying your post. It really explained things better to me. I completely agree with what you said. I know some bands get frustrated when they are beaten by us, like you said. But its fun to be different. I would definetly rather be the band that tries something new and be different than be like the rest. Plus its more fun! (Not saying other bands arent having fun)

 

I personally thank you for your apology. It means a great deal to us and the band. And I hope you great success on the band that you are a part of or represent.

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Thank you, and best of luck to NN on their season, too.

 

On a related note, did civility just happen on the internet? :P

Lol yep. And just proved iPlay-iEnjoy that this was not a hopeless case. xD

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please don't turn into dcp... please don't turn into dcp... please...
What exactly do you mean?
A certain drum corps forum.... known for its constant bickering and senseless arguing about topics that really don't matter in the bigger picture

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ok yeah there's no need to be bashin each other's shows, just say your opinions and how they can IMPROVE (in your opinion) instead of just bashin on them

anyway

in my opinion i think it's sorta cool how NN does a show completely out of the norm for HS marching especially in illinois

i personally like the kind of shows that send chills down your spine and i think it'd be cool if NN tried one of these, but added their spectacular GE into it. THAT would get my attention.

but i think what people talk about with the judges at chicagoland is how NN beat EVERY band by at least 1.2 pts (not positive on that number) in one caption

i can't remember which but i think it was GE

and they would deserve to win in that caption and it makes me frustrated when people say that judges are biased, etc. and i can see why a situation like this would raise suspision

but as soon as bands start blaming judges biased for them losing then no one will be happy and no one will improve to their fullest cuz they'll just think the next judge won't be "biased"

but that's just my opinion

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hey NN! you guys had a great show on Saturday. i know i enjoyed what i could see from the back of the field while waiting to perform. let's all be honest here, the judges are hired because they know what they are doing. I am in the Morton band, and obviously that night NN had a better show. Good for you guys. it's been a HUGE subject in our band about competing for "that feeling" as you walk off the field, not for shiny stuff that seniors get to break at the end of their regime. i got "that feeling" Saturday and that's all i care about. i was proud of what we did and im happy for NN. im just honored to be competing with "the big dogs" now. and in my senior year, im just glad to be out there and giving it all i've got. i love that feeling as i walk off the field, that feeling like i could not have done better. I love it, i crave it. that's all that matters. so, i will continue to wish luck to the other bands and mean it sincerely. great job on Saturday NN!

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Im sorry you dont like bands that would rather please the audience and give them a show to enjoy then try to understand whats going on and interpret why their show is entitled what it is.
Son.....I'm quite sure that all the bands taking the field want to please their audience. I'm also quite sure that there is nothing wrong with asking or expecting your audience to think a little when watching a performance. This is music and movement that kids are asked to do for months. It better be worth the effort educationally. Marching bands should try to entertain their audience, but they are also meant to educate the students, and IMO the audience to something new as well. If watching a show or performing a show doesn't require you to stretch your creative and musical muscle a little, then it is just a waste of everyone's time. *

 

 

*disclaimer: Before anyone comes after me with a rant, this isn't directed at NN, but it is directed at the student from NN that just doesn't know what he's talking about.

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Im sorry you dont like bands that would rather please the audience and give them a show to enjoy then try to understand whats going on and interpret why their show is entitled what it is.
Son.....I'm quite sure that all the bands taking the field want to please their audience. I'm also quite sure that there is nothing wrong with asking or expecting your audience to think a little when watching a performance. This is music and movement that kids are asked to do for months. It better be worth the effort educationally. Marching bands should try to entertain their audience, but they are also meant to educate the students, and IMO the audience to something new as well. If watching a show or performing a show doesn't require you to stretch your creative and musical muscle a little, then it is just a waste of everyone's time. *

 

 

*disclaimer: Before anyone comes after me with a rant, this isn't directed at NN, but it is directed at the student from NN that just doesn't know what he's talking about.

applause.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Im sorry you dont like bands that would rather please the audience and give them a show to enjoy then try to understand whats going on and interpret why their show is entitled what it is.
Son.....I'm quite sure that all the bands taking the field want to please their audience. I'm also quite sure that there is nothing wrong with asking or expecting your audience to think a little when watching a performance. This is music and movement that kids are asked to do for months. It better be worth the effort educationally. Marching bands should try to entertain their audience, but they are also meant to educate the students, and IMO the audience to something new as well. If watching a show or performing a show doesn't require you to stretch your creative and musical muscle a little, then it is just a waste of everyone's time. *

 

 

*disclaimer: Before anyone comes after me with a rant, this isn't directed at NN, but it is directed at the student from NN that just doesn't know what he's talking about.

Alright, thanks for your input on the subject. I love a great debate! Of course everyband would like to please their audience when they perform! Obivously, or why else are they there? To waste the time of the audience? But see the thing is about "pleasure" or "being pleased" is that there are many different ways to accomplish that, and also many things to take into consideration. Every band wants another bands parents to enjoy watching their show right? But the thing is about parents is that not all parents are "music majors" or an easy way to say it, have a wide knowledge of music. So since your post was directed to the audience, the auidence consists of mainly parents of band members, which consist of mostly uneducated ones in the music department. Truthfully im not that knowledged in the sense of the music department in naming composers or music or sometimes just understanding what the real message of the song is really meant to be. To ask a parent to understand something like that without metacognition is absurded! My post was merely directed towards audience memebsr like that, hopefully you read the post prior to the one posted before me which is also quoted in my post. Additionally this isnt saying that members who do have prior knowledge in music cant enjoy the show either, its more of a show that everyone can enjoy. For example, a friend of mines little brother who is around 3-4 could even point out the choo choo train in our show and ask "Why are their people on tracks? They are gonna get hurt!"

 

You mentioned...

" Marching bands should try to entertain their audience, but they are also meant to educate the students, and IMO the audience to something new as well. "

NN does educate your students with hte music we play. How could we not? I have this feelin as if you think the music is super easy, that a sight reader could play it as well as a person who practiced it for months. Which is false, you wouldnt know you havent seen it. You also mention to educate the audience with something new. Well.... How many bands do something like this in the IL area? Seems pretty unique and is definetly new to the audience. And fair enough to say the audience looks forwards to watching our show. So do judges! IMO audience members and judges learn more new info from our show or any show that is unique than the same Copland Sketches.

 

Towards the last sentence of your paragraph, I would just like to answer by saying we dont require the audience to stretch their creative and musical muscles, but rather than WE, the band, will stretch our creativeness and musical muscles for the audience, for a show that they can enjoy and remember.

 

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wow this is neat cuz both people are making pretty valid pointes

a lot of the time judges have something to do with it, not that they're wrong, but how could personally liking or disliking a show NOT affect your scoring, no matter how hard you try?

NN has completely different shows than other bands and usually if the judges are more into serious shows NN may not even place in the top 3 but if they dig the cute and entertaining shows then NN can win by a landslide.

not saying that it's the judge's fault, cuz it's nearly impossible to block out ALL personal preference, but IMO it sort of explains how NN can do so great one show then not do as well the next. they may have done everything exacty the same, but different judges are pickier on certain things.

LTS: different judges, different preferences.

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For example, a friend of mines little brother who is around 3-4 could even point out the choo-choo train in our show and ask, "Why are there people on tracks? They are gonna get hurt!"

My two year old nieces loved watching my show up at Lincoln Way last year, and we just had a regular ol' marching show.

 

Anyone with any or no experience with music can enjoy any kind of show. And IMO I think it's safe to say that most people attending a marching band competition have at least some appreciation for the activity, enough appreciation to enjoy a show without the band nessecarily performing extreme theatrics.

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I like most of lucio's analogy. i don't think that nn doesn't work hard. please don't think i think that. also i think what he means by premade template is the themes with the sometimes common music to go with them. not that the designers didn't think of the original idea for a marching band show, but take for example NN 2005. it was entertaining, but if we're talking about scoring or placing, it was just goofy. there were other bands craving to move up through the ranks, think of their position, like the powerpoint analogy. 2005 NN-there were these little segments of common songs that kids learn how to play their instruments on. NN has talent, so i know that it was not hard for them to learn and execute that music well. It went VERY well with the well thought creative theme, and it was quite fun if you were watching just to watch, but it just felt empty in terms of a high school level marching band show that was up there with the "big boys" or whatever you like to call the top bands.

 

someone else, band8008 i think, pointed something out about pleasing the audience. I agree, most bands go out there to please the audience, at least i would hope. geez. I also pretty much agree about shows that make you think as opposed to shows that are just obvious and don't require creative thinking. I do think that both types of shows can be just as entertaining...

 

NNHSax- you don't have to be a music major to understand or think creatively and use "musical muscle" as band8008 put it. We aren't talking technically, like "oh they played a picardy third there" or something like that. They do not have to know the music for it to be captivating and for it to be memorable.

 

P.S. sorry if i ever sounded harsh and blunt without an explanation.

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IMO audience members and judges learn more new info from our show or any show that is unique than the same Copland Sketches.

 

That's absurd.

 

Truthfully im not that knowledged in the sense of the music department in naming composers or music or sometimes just understanding what the real message of the song is really meant to be. To ask a parent to understand something like that without metacognition is absurded!

 

Some of the best marching band shows I've ever seen have been ones that I watched and loved the music and movement, without diving into the "metacognition" of what the music or the show means. However, I'm not a musical moron who needs a show to be chewed up so I can digest it easier, or somebody who needs to watch a little play on the field in order to enjoy the show. In fact, that stuff to me is all extraneous fluff. Cute, but totally unnecessary and a substitute for developing a show that is more visually and musically challenging.

 

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I would much rather watch a show that makes makes me say "holy cow how the heck did they just do that?" or "wow that drill move was INSANE" than a show where the focus is drawn off of the band members and music. Demand is the name of the game.

 

I would rather watch a show that leaves me thinking "woah that was extremely tough and they pulled it off well" then a show that leaves me thinking "that was cool, but what would happen if you took away all the fluff?"

 

This also dives into similar realms of why people have such a problem with The Cadets (exception being this year). The focus is taken from the band (corps in this case) and given to actors, narrators, guard members, and a "plot" of the show. If you took away all the extra stuff, would the show still make sense/be entertaining?

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I would much rather watch a show that makes makes me say "holy cow how the heck did they just do that?" or "wow that drill move was INSANE" than a show where the focus is drawn off of the band members and music. Demand is the name of the game.

 

I would rather watch a show that leaves me thinking "woah that was extremely tough and they pulled it off well" then a show that leaves me thinking "that was cool, but what would happen if you took away all the fluff?"

 

This also dives into similar realms of why people have such a problem with The Cadets (exception being this year). The focus is taken from the band (corps in this case) and given to actors, narrators, guard members, and a "plot" of the show. If you took away all the extra stuff, would the show still make sense/be entertaining?

Even further, what entertains one person may or may not entertain someone else. I want shows that grab my attention (through the music, concept, visual, quality of performance or any/all of the above) and make me want to see it again and again. To be honest, there are not a lot of shows that are able to do that for me. More often then not...one read of a show is usually enough unless it is a top notch program...which would have one of the aspects I mentioned above.

 

Of course it is nice to see how programs grow and develop over the season, too. But I may or may not go out of my way to see certain bands more then once. For me, and this is just a personal preference, NN is the type of program I'll see once and probably have my fill for that season.

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I would much rather watch a show that makes makes me say "holy cow how the heck did they just do that?" or "wow that drill move was INSANE" than a show where the focus is drawn off of the band members and music. Demand is the name of the game.

 

I would rather watch a show that leaves me thinking "woah that was extremely tough and they pulled it off well" then a show that leaves me thinking "that was cool, but what would happen if you took away all the fluff?"

 

This also dives into similar realms of why people have such a problem with The Cadets (exception being this year). The focus is taken from the band (corps in this case) and given to actors, narrators, guard members, and a "plot" of the show. If you took away all the extra stuff, would the show still make sense/be entertaining?

Even further, what entertains one person may or may not entertain someone else. I want shows that grab my attention (through the music, concept, visual, quality of performance or any/all of the above) and make me want to see it again and again. To be honest, there are not a lot of shows that are able to do that for me. More often then not...one read of a show is usually enough unless it is a top notch program...which would have one of the aspects I mentioned above.

 

Of course it is nice to see how programs grow and develop over the season, too. But I may or may not go out of my way to see certain bands more then once. For me, and this is just a personal preference, NN is the type of program I'll see once and probably have my fill for that season.

i agree.

 

going off that, i've seen this year's NN show twice at the FIRST competition, it was cute and fun, and a bunch of other things- trademark NN. It looked like a full show to me. really what is there to add to it? yes, they can and will clean and improve little aspects of the show, but how much more can you do with it without seriously going overboard? It's going to stay relatively the same as other bands begin to add to and fully develop their shows and people will be like "wow cool i've never seen that before in this show, nice touch, I can't wait to see what they will do next"

but for me personally, I've seen the cute ending twice, and it's gonna start getting old soon =/

 

 

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Yes, I definitely agree that our show gets REALLY old after about the 2nd time you see it, which is why generally the competition the week before ISU is always a "I hope the judges still judge our show without saying anything about how old and lame it is."

 

I feel that Mr. Moore doesn't really like adding or changing things to our show once we learn it, since we learn it all at band camp it is really hard to change things (actually I wouldn't know, seeing as I've never done it, but thats my impression).

 

I dont think that our show would be entertaining if you took away all the actors, props, whatever. Definitely not. A lot of our show is based on that, but look at LWE, who also uses lots of props. Clearly they use their props differently, but I think their show would have the same impacts with or without props. Definitely not the case for NN because our show is based so heavily on our props and actors, which is just the way that Mr. Moore writes our shows.

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To throw in an opinion as one of the people who is from a school that marches a very traditional show, and regularly gets floored by NN in the standings. I personally love what NN does with each of their shows, because it's so creative and different. I wouldn't want to be a part of a show that is that "stuff"-oriented, but I think that it's perfectly fine that they get a high GE for it, because when I see it, I say "Wow, that's pretty cool." And isn't that the point of GE?

Just giving an opinion from the field and the back stands.

 

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Yes, I definitely agree that our show gets REALLY old after about the 2nd time you see it, which is why generally the competition the week before ISU is always a "I hope the judges still judge our show without saying anything about how old and lame it is."

 

I feel that Mr. Moore doesn't really like adding or changing things to our show once we learn it, since we learn it all at band camp it is really hard to change things (actually I wouldn't know, seeing as I've never done it, but thats my impression).

 

I dont think that our show would be entertaining if you took away all the actors, props, whatever. Definitely not. A lot of our show is based on that, but look at LWE, who also uses lots of props. Clearly they use their props differently, but I think their show would have the same impacts with or without props. Definitely not the case for NN because our show is based so heavily on our props and actors, which is just the way that Mr. Moore writes our shows.

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Haha, thanks I guess.

 

Just to clarify, I didn't mean that our shows would be bad without the actors/props, they just wouldn't be that entertaining. I dont know how that'd affect the judges scores, but surely it wouldn't be as fun to watch. There is no doubt the band can perform the music and drill, I just know that a lot of the impact of our show comes from the plot line supplied by actors, props, and guard.

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